Wesco Annual Meeting, Pasadena CA 2008
May 7, 2008
Notes courtesy of Peter Boodell; thank you!
(As
is standard, no recording equipment was used to reproduce these notes.
My high school typing teacher gets all the credit. As a result, these
notes are recollections only – not quotes, and should not be relied
upon as a literal transcript. –PB)
CM: Testing, can you hear in back? Mr Denham has an announcement.
Denham: We ask you not to use your video recorders, thanks.
CM:
Welcome to the 49th annual meeting of shareholders of Wesco Corp.
Please register to vote at entrance. Anyone wishing to speak, state
name, wait for microphone. List of shareholders, 96% of outstanding
proxies received. Election of directors? All in favor? [Aye]. Motion is
carried.
Six nominees are elected. There will be a long Q&A
preceded by Socratic solitaire conducted by the Chairman. Meeting is
adjourned.
We now begin Q&A, starting with a long game of
Socratic solitaire. During questions, do not ask what we are buying or
selling. Any other question is fair game, but we don’t agree to answer
them.
Because many of you have come from such a long distance, I
will talk before I take your questions. I will address two topics,
general investment climate [and learnings from Berkshire Hathaway]. We
normally avoid [discussing the general investment climate] like the
plague. Most assets are priced to a level where it is hard to get
excited. It is hard to get 4% yield on a nice apartment, and it doesn’t
include replacing the carpets. Bonds of strong corporations are 4%
yield. Corporate equities are paying 2% pa, growing 4% per year. Such a
world isn’t the one that made all of you able to come to the meeting.
Last generation has been in hog heaven – some bumps, but it had easiest
time getting ahead. In the eighteen years that preceded hog heaven, the
purchasing power of Yale’s endowment went down 60%. They were getting
real investment return of 0%, negative. It is not at all impossible
that brilliant investors like Yale get bad results in the future.
People
are used to laying money aside and investing in standard fashion, and
become quite comfortable. It is easy to forget that this isn’t
guaranteed. Many have recognized this, but for those running pensions
it is difficult [to adjust down assumptions] —like the agony of raising
taxes or not looking good as CEO of a company. Some of them wonder if
they have signed up for something too hard when running a defined
pension plan. That crowd doesn’t want to go to a 4-5% assumption,
because the pain of the money needed to correct the plan is large.
Bonds pay 4%, so they go to alternative investments with profit
sharing. They solve the problem by giving ‘reasonable return’ and sell
hedge funds and venture capital fund, mid-stage, late stage, private
equity, etc etc etc. They do complex trading strategies, private equity
in Africa. They buy timber. [audio system malfunctions] Evidently that
machine didn’t like the remark. People go into alternatives, and this
has worked very well so far. A lot of university endowments have done
it – and that is game we are in. If natural return is 5%, getting it to
9% is very unlikely to work well long term. It’s going to be difficult
for people to have high real returns from deferring consumption. The
reason my generation did so well was kind of a fluke, and won’t
necessarily continue. There will be lots of chicanery in future. Many
claim alpha – but really they are just taking earthquake risk. At end
of year, when there is no earthquake, they take the money. This is a
dishonorable way to invest. It is always easier to get felicity by
reducing expectations instead of seeking extreme results.
We
have plenty of scandals coming. Lots of rot has gotten into system. It
has caused unpleasantness. What is next? I suggest the derivative
trading books of the world are next. The accounting allowed in
derivative books has been god awful. The morals and intelligence has
been god awful. ‘I’ll be gone and you’ll be gone’ is phrase they use.
What is buried in those books is dangerous, with clearance risks with
optimistic assumptions that the accountants allowed. I was at Salomon
when interest rate swap accounting was changed. They had a matched
book. They were making $7mil, 25m over 18m. Both sides wanted to mark
trades profitably. They couldn’t retain derivative traders if they
didn’t have bad accounting. There is a lot of Gresham’s law here, where
the bad practice drives out the good.
If you run a good bank,
and testosterone bank around corner pressures you, there are tremendous
pressures to conform. Everyone starts replicating. If every university
puts 2% into timber, that can go on a long time. But it is
self-fulfilling. When it comes to the unwind, when they all want to get
out. A lot of things rely on momentum. Valuations make everyone look
good for a while.
We have seen consequences in this mortgage
meltdown, not pretty. The amount of knavery and folly revealed in last
eighteen months has been unbelievable. I will ask a question, then I
will attempt to answer it. Why did this happen? Greed, envy, and
terrible accounting was part of it. There was a general lack of
conservatism. The engineering mindset that everything must withstand
great stresses was thrown out for ‘if music is playing, you gotta
dance’. I don’t feel compulsion to dance, to join the crowd.
One
of my favorite stories is boy in Texas, when the teacher asked the
class the following question. There are nine sheep in pen, and one
jumps out, how many are left? Everyone got it right, and said eight are
left. The boy said none are left. The teacher said you don’t understand
arithmetic, and he said ‘no you don’t understand sheep’. Sam Goldwin
had a saying – ‘include me out’ – it is one of my favorite expressions.
People
were distributing stuff that they wouldn’t buy themselves. It is the
structure of the modern world. Favorite philosopher: Frankl. He said
the systems have to be responsible. People who are making decisions
must bear results of decisions. In Rome, the builder and designer stood
under the bridge when the scaffolding was removed. In parachutes, you
pack your own chute. Capitalism works that way too. At a restaurant,
owner is bearing the consequences. If he slips, he doesn’t do well.
Frankl would be pleased with restaurant business, and not pleased with
investment banking. They sell, take the money, go home – it doesn’t
work. And people wouldn’t get by if accountants didn’t bless it. When I
was at Salomon, I was on the audit committee. A group came and said
that we want to change our accounting, and where our credit is terrible
– we want to report automatic profits – ie, to buy counterparties out
cheaply because they want to sell. I told them that ‘You will have that
accounting over my dead body’. I won that battle, but I lost the war.
Post
Enron, accountants made mandatory that where the worse your credit gets
the more profits you make. In the old system, the liabilities are
always 100% good – it’s the assets you have to worry about. Accountants
have thrown it out. They have made it standard. If you ask accountants
about it, they say it is so complicated we won’t get to it in 3 yrs.
They want something simple to do. A silly procedure and silly result
doesn’t bother them as long as it is in some book. That is not wisest
way to run a profession.
Legal profession comes in for own
opprobrium. Knavish people were deliberately blind. They didn’t want to
wrestle punch bowl away from a couple burly drunks. I had a friend who
once proposed a rule at the partnership that they would fire one client
per year on moral grounds. They would get rid their most venal and
dangerous client once a year. That proposal went down in flames. There
is a certain amount of deliberate blindness. If you want to prevent,
you must have whole lines of activity that people are not allowed to
engage in. [more problems with sound system] We are in shadow of
Caltech and we can’t get the sound system right. Envy effects corporate
compensation. People want to be paid like movie stars rather than
archbishops. I don’t think it is necessary. Most would occupy top
position at lower compensation rate. It is terrible to civilization. It
brings extreme envy into population at wide. In Britain, they took
taxes so high that anyone with property was leveled down to growing
their own tomatoes. It was not good, very counterproductive. It was
matter of envy. The working population required it and it was reaction
to envy effects. It is not good to have the results we have had.
If
we turn to Berkshire Hathaway, we have faults, but some of standard
faults we deliberately avoid. Someone recorded what we would have had
if Warren had paid himself 2&20. We would have had much lower
taxes, so some other shareholders would have been better off, but
Warren would have had 3x what he has now. Would world have been better
if it had been run that way? I don’t think so. There is a lot to be
said that people in power make money with shareholders, not off them.
I’m not asking for an unreasonable ethos. It was compulsory in Athens.
Liturgos, means required behavior. You had to give like hell if you
were a leader. They had banishment. When language and traditions impose
these… we might need it. We should restrict people in a more old
fashioned way.
I remember what I was going to say. Privileges.
If you are an investment bank and had to be rescued, there should be
limits on leverage and the complications of your business. There should
be qualitative limits too. By and large banks behaved well when it
worked this way. When I was young, Bank of America – would not have
done things they do now. Derivative trading, no good clearance, no
rules, excess and craziness feeding on itself. The plain vanilla
products got priced down to no profits. They wanted to do complicated
stuff. Not sure if it cleared, or other side would be good for it. It
didn’t bother anyone since they wanted the profits. The hidden trouble
in derivative books is awesomely large. Greenspan overdosed on Ayn Rand
ethos. He never got it out of his system. As long as axe murders were a
natural outcome, then they were okay. I don’t think it is necessary –
and think you can regulate ax murders away. People talk about marvels
of system and risk transfer – but some of our troubles COME from having
so much risk transfer.
After South Sea Bubble, Britain outlawed
public corporations – only private ones allowed. And they led the world
for 100 yrs. A modest amount of liquidity will serve the situation. Too
much liquidity will hurt human nature. I would never be tenured if I
said that. But I’m right and they are wrong. We don’t need worst
excesses. We do not need smartest people in science and math in
computer driven strategies. This is not a plus for wider civilization.
Derivative trading books – is one big clump of excess not having had
its denouement.
I am now going to turn to a more interesting
subject, the Berkshire Hathaway phenomenon. What are the lessons? On
investment side, people are realizing that old fashioned idea of trying
to get more value than you are paying for. I think that idea is
gaining, and I think a plus for rationality. It doesn’t make it any
easier. By the nature of things, it will be difficult to make easy
money.
How is it organized? I don’t think in history of world
has anything Berkshire’s size organized in so decentralized a fashion.
Net amount of bureaucracy is tiny, costs are low, autonomy in
subsidiaries is vast, no common culture shuffling people around. How
far can this go? This system has gone farther than any other system.
Low cost, not a lot of envy effects – where everyone compares
everything. People in subsidiaries have a feeling – whereby there is
less fealty to headquarters. If you want an imperial headquarters which
exacts a big overhead charge on the provinces – they will resent it.
Net number of intra-subsidiary transfers is tiny. It has worked well.
It can go a lot farther. No one else has been here before.
There
are defects to the conglomerate system, where you have a separate quota
system driven by headquarters driving provinces to meet central
numbers. It causes a lot of expenses at headquarters. GE is good at
running a conglomerate system. Berkshire has avoided the minuses. It
can go farther. It has a system of running a financial system with low
leverage and extreme willingness to let assets run out – that is quite
rare. Most financial institutions talk our talk but don’t walk our
walk. People can’t stand watching a place shrink. If you take General
Re, they needed a derivative book like I needed a case of syphilis. It
made headquarters more interesting. When we reached for money it wasn’t
there. Out derivative book produced $400m of losses, and we were more
conservative than most places.
[break to fix the sound system]
We
have moved to a hard mike, so please return to your seats. Microphone
system has an educational value. What they should not be allowed to do
– is anything that is too complicated. The hard mike system [vs the
wired], lo and behold, is working as it always did. Systems need
duplicative systems, back up system one, and back up system two.
Complicated systems – the high priests usually don’t understand it
either. The system just goes out of control. Now we have government
guaranteeing credit and then letting investment banks do what they want
-- it is a very foolish system. They ought to have behavioral
standards. They feel entitled, and that is not what they should feel
with privilege of Federal Reserve backing. At Berkshire, we are
ridiculously conservative. Even our reserves have reserves. We don’t
have to renew our credit every Monday morning. We behave in way that we
never need to renew our credit, and we still don’t need the money.
There
have been comments on derivative trades we have done. If other people
shouldn’t be doing it, why are we? Other people pay us money because
people know we don’t have clearance risk, we are not at whim of other
parties. It is a very different kind of a trade. The only reason we can
make those trades is because there aren’t many out there who others
would trust to make those trades. If you ask me, would I give up all of
the opportunities of derivative trading to go back to a simpler cleaner
world like engineering of yore--I would do it in a heartbeat. But what
we have seen in mortgage market is only an aperitif to what we would
see, in a system with bad rules and incentives. Especially with the
appetites of males – women wouldn’t get us into this mess. In a soccer
game, if there were no rules, people would destroy the body of the
person on the other side. That is what referee is for. So we need
referees to tell boyish adults not to hurt others. I don’t make this
stuff up. Mark Twain said that truth is stranger than fiction because
fiction has to make sense.
Some people call you people cultists,
but most here are people who want to learn. It is a very good thing to
be in this world. I think we are accidently creating something which is
a learning institution, which may work that way for a long time. I
don’t think Berkshire will perish when Warren dies. I had lunch with
two Berkshire executives, and my heavenly days, those two guys are
likely to make that business one of best in the world. How could there
be a business like that buried in a place like Berkshire? There are
very good things in this place. With reputation, comes duty. We should
try to earn it. And run it in a way that people who succeed us do the
same thing. That is what we are trying to do. Warren will never spend
any of the money. He has never given a way a dime he needed. He
deserves no credit as a philanthropist. I think we are part of
something quite interesting and worth following. We get calls from
people who trust us, and who don’t trust anyone else. We don’t get many
calls like that, but how many of you get any?
I have rambled on.
Academic response to Berkshire has been pathetic. It is soft science
with enviable formulas. So you had to program a computer to buy only
highly volatile stocks in order to make 7% per annum more? But if true,
computers would do it. I don’t know why people pay attention to those
ideas. Down boy, they say, you just don’t understand modern finance.
And these are grown up people. One man, to whom they gave the Nobel, he
kept saying Berkshire just lucky. A six sigma event – he wasn’t going
to change his theory on the facts available. Business is simple, the
details are hard. You need mementoes in place to help you in daily
fight.
The only duty of corporate executive is to widen the
moat. We must make it wider. Every day is to widen the moat. We gave
you a competitive advantage, and you must leave us the moat. There are
times when it is too tough. But duty should be to widen the moat. I can
see instance after instance where that isn’t what people do in
business. One must keep their eye on ball of widening the moat, to be a
steward of the competitive advantage that came to you. A General in
England said, ‘Get you the sons your fathers got, and God will save the
Queen.’ At Hewlett Packard, your responsibility is to train and deliver
a subordinate who can succeed you. It is not all that complicated – all
that mumbo jumbo. We make bricks in Texas which use the same process as
in Mesopotamia. You need just a few bits of ethos, and particularly
engineering ethos. Think through the system, and get a margin of
safety. Like this backup microphone.
Q1: Thank you Charlie.
Financial risk transfers – 500trillion notional value. Sort of like
Lilly Toms – things will get worse before they get worse. How does this
all unwind?
When the Chinese A-shares went utterly crazy, you
could predict this has to collapse. When mortgage excesses got crazy on
slicing and dicing by scummy hucksters, it was similar. Derivatives
trading books however are not similar. It has no automatic collapse
surely to come. Some day it will be a mess, but I don’t know when. The
mess that would have been if Bear Stearns went under would have been
awesome. In CDS, assume $100mil bond issue, and they allow issuance of
$100b notional contracts. You have huge incentive for company to go
broke. You are not allowed to buy insurance on other people, unrelated
parties. There is no reason in America to have vast bets on $100m bond
issue to which no one is party. It creates needless complexity and very
perverse incentives. They say “it’s a free market”. The correct
adjective is insane.
Q2: Mark from Auz. Last year I was
concerned about solvency in banks. I had stocks sent to me in scrip
form. Is it now safe to let large corporations hold our stock or safer
to keep at home?
Good question. I think risks are low in a cash
account at reputable firms. Even in a margin account I think risks are
low. It is inconvenient to keep them at home. They all end up in
depositaries anyway. Everyone relying on electronic blips. I think
fairly safe.
Q3: NY. The amount of derivatives out there today
30tril, 3x GDP. Do you think volumes will present danger in future,
have you ever spoken to someone who writes derivatives?
It is
complicated. They show large profits. It is peculiar thing – allowed to
morph to huge size. Interest rate swaps – overstated. So imperfectly
regulated it has a danger to the rest of us.
Q4: CA. Named our son after Warren. We are in market for a house in CA. Wanted your views on house prices.
Housing
prices are going down in most places in CA. If you want house in
Pasadena, if offer price 1.8m better to start bid at 1.85m. So not
going down everywhere. Generally speaking the time to buy a house is
when you need one. If you make money on it, it is just a byproduct of
you doing your family duty.
Q4: NY. Have you ever asked quality programs at subsidiaries to improve margins?
We
try to buy companies so permeated by good ethos that they don’t need
checking from headquarters. We are trying to live in a seamless web of
deserved trust. It has worked for us, and it is the ideal way to live.
If your marriage partner has sixty page contract, you shouldn’t enter.
You want to get a seamless web of trust. If life is hard, you may need
a command control system. But we try to avoid it.
Q5: NJ. Railroad regulation?
CM:
They are regulated. Earned so little money for years, that I expect
rules will be better in future. They have increased capacity in a great
way. It has been costly. I would not anticipate regulatory burdens to
be high because the railroads have behaved well.
Q6: NY.
Rationality? No one is 100% rational. How do you reconcile rationality
with irrationality required for successful human relationships?
CM:
There are some relationships you couldn’t have if you were rational. If
someone asked you to join heroin smoking party, you wouldn’t qualify if
you were rational. I think rationality is of immense benefit. It is a
deep moral duty, you must hold it in trust and must hone it. People who
are no good at it, they have to go to a different guru. I was born into
a different skin.
Q7: WA. Inflation?
CM: If you have
competitive advantage, and make 10% of sales, and sales go up 10% due
to inflation, you will tend to make a little more money. Whether we
will earn less or more, my answer is probably earn a little more.
Q8: UT. General Re. Brandon resignation.
We
want to stay away from that subject. But we will stand behind Joe
Brandon. He did a magnificent job. We stand behind that observation. I
would trust him personally. [applause]
Q9: TX. Howdy. US force feeding 2bil per day. $2b a day to other countries, is it sustainable?
I
would not be running twin deficits if I was running this country. I
would have policies that didn’t push things as far as they have been
pushed.
Q10: Dan Rizowsky. Discuss opinions and which model to reach a resolution?
We
come to agreement once in a blue moon. Very seldom does he do something
I wouldn’t do. Once in a while will we change each others’ view. We’re
like an old married couple, humph humph and a nod and it is decided –
no conversation necessary.
Q11: Harold from LA. Comments on Alan
Greenspan and Ayn Rand and finance professor who can’t believe the
success of Berkshire. Has there been a time like today when facts on
the ground count so little for people in position of power?
You
hang around with fellow ideologues. You should avoid this. Many people
are totally confident they know the answer. When you have this
confidence you need to get over it.
Q12: James Armstrong from
Pittsburgh. You have said that Moody’s and HBS have the best pricing
power of anyone in the world. What causes Moody’s moat to shrink?
All
the rating agencies with 20/20 hindsight have performed poorly. When
you perform poorly you impair your franchise. They weren’t quite
fundamental enough. Exact example of the kind of thing I was speaking
about. In an attempt to make more, they made their position a little
worse. This is obvious isn’t it?
Q13: Scott from LA. With
portfolio of $2m, vs. that of Berkshire, how would your mandate be
different? Small vs mid, us vs intl, etc?
If I was managing
smaller money I’d be looking in smaller places, I’d look for
mispricing. But I don’t want to change places with you. [laughter]
Q14: Matt from San Jose. California is single A rating. Only other one is worse is Louisiana.
Both
parties have been gerrymandering the legislature. It’s hard to get
elected unless you’re a left or right wing nut. It’s a perfectly
natural result in an insane system. We are not voluntarily going to
change the system. I was the largest donor to the last attempt to
change this system. We went down in flames. Stay tuned.
Q15: Sam from Santa Monica. What are your thoughts on the war on terror and the war in Iraq?
A:
You’re going pretty far afield. Terror is a hell of a problem. People
are vastly overconfident in the solution. They are probably making an
error.
Q16: Phil, shareholder. What would you do if you were Fed. Suggestions on short and long term solutions to credit crunch?
Changing
the system so the system is more responsible. We had margin
requirements for decades and the fed forced this. Now with the
combination of options and derivatives margin requirements have
vanished. Federal Reserve has no power to deleverage. I think the
system is seriously wrong.
Q17: Casey from Pasadena. Strong return on intangible assets is what WB likes. What else do you look for?
We
buy Kraft these days because we have so much money. We are accepting
way lower returns now than we were ten years ago. It is natural
consequence of the world getting more competitive.
Q18: What do you think of the treasury market with negative real yields?
It would be depressing if that was my best opportunity.
Q19: Forest from Ft. Worth Texas. Do you look at railroads from a replacement value standpoint?
Do
you know what it would cost to replace Burlington Northern today? We
are not going to build another transcontinental. And those assets are
valuable, have utility. Now they want to raise diesel prices on trucks.
Wish I was smart enough to identify this few years earlier. Avoiding
the most extreme follies of man makes you better.
Q20: CA. Why has commercial property not fallen as much as residential?
Cap
rates came way down and asset values went way up. Financing
transactions are getting away from euphoric conditions. A lot of the
real estate fortunes have been made with extraordinary leverage.
Commercial real estate is not a good business for us but ok for the
entrepreneurial types. We shouldn’t be doing it.
Q21: Matt from NYC. How does Berkshire thru its subsidiaries manage an annual budgeting process?
We
don’t have one. Obsessing over budgets creates bad incentives. Just
eliminate unnecessary costs. Budget committees tend to do just the
opposite.
Q22: John, shareholder. Any recent books you recommend?
I’m
a bug for history and science. Yes by Cialdini is good. Most of the
psychology professors can’t handle this real life material. It’s not a
perfect book and not as good as Influence. As Warren says, experience
is what happens when you’re looking for something else.
Q23: Peter, Yonkers NY. Which is better, insurance based float or money management float?
A:
In terms of pure utilitarian perspective, you can make way more money
in money mgmt than insurance business. There are few businesses as good
as money management. Average returns in insurance property and casualty
have been pretty pathetic. Once you have enough money you stop
accepting compensation and just manage money -- it is more manly. At
least 95% of the insurance businesses in the world are worse than ours.
Q24: Ashok from LA. Checklist?
I
don’t have a simple checklist. You have to work at it a long long time.
I still do dumb things after years of hard work. The more big ideas you
have the easier. We exclude a whole lot of things because they are in
the too tough pile. If you exclude, you do better. Then you must have
field where rationality will be rewarded. Some of political ideas – it
is very hard to know how they will work out over next few centuries. We
are not trying to involve ourselves. We look for things that can be
done. But I have no little short list. People who sell strong abs on TV
at night might have one. I have no rule for a strong brain.
Q25:
Whitney Tilson. NY. You reported earnings, but not a single shareholder
asked about it. I was hoping for a comment on Berkshire earnings, and
on mark to market derivative losses.
It was a very remarkable
occurrence. Like the Sherlock Holmes story – about the remarkable
happening with the dog’s behavior. Sherlock Holmes asks about the
behavior of the dog in the night. “The dog didn’t make a sound.” “Yes,
that was remarkable.” That perhaps is teaching a lesson. Those people
trust us. They trust Warren, and rightly so. You saw an interesting
example of deserved trust working in real world and in Omaha. By the
way, we love that position. The accountants don’t know what they are
doing but I don’t criticize them.
Q26: LA. In 25 yrs, where would you see oil production? What year do you see the peak?
This
is very flattering, but I don’t think question nor my answer will do
much for my reputation. We don’t know year, and the reason Warren
picked up on my answer last weekend so strongly is that it is a
radically different world where oil production is down 25 yrs from now,
with radical adaptations necessary. Hubbert pretty accurately predicted
peak. If it hasn’t peaked, it soon will, and it will go down. At $120 /
barrel, there are obvious strains in the production system.
Q27:
LA. I went to private school where you donated science building. For
many minorities, there are low graduation rates. What can government do
to help? What can we do?
Very serious problem, anguish causing.
CA had once the best public education system in USA. It is a very sad
thing. The private system is very competitive. Warren has suggested
that if no one was allowed to use private schools, citizens would make
sure public system was good. Not sure Warren is right on this.
Personally I am better at lifting top up than the bottom up. Why
shouldn’t I stick to game where I’m better suited? If you want to know
how to raise top higher, I think I could help you a lot. If you want to
raise lowest, I don’t know how to do it.
Q28: Boston. Swiss Re transaction. Could you add some color? Long tail insurance?
It will be long tail. It won’t be a bonanza. It ought to be reasonable, we like Swiss Re.
Q29: I’m curious, you are student of history. Does today remind you of any time in past, and why?
I
punched premium channel in hotel in Tokyo, and out came exercise in
pornography. I would argue Soddom and Gomorah is still around. I think
Athens of Pericles is still around today. Our bullies are similar to
past eras.
Q30: LA. How will meltdown affect Brazil and China. Will you invest there?
We
have [economic] system which is interdependent. [A slowdown here] would
have repercussions elsewhere. Will Brazil have troubles? No. Brazil is
favorably located now. If I could get equivalent business prospects I
would prefer USA. That iron mine that Brazil owns, you only need small
knowledge to know that it is one of best in world. Agriculture – they
are in a very strong position. We are not invested there at the moment.
We have a small position in Brazilian Real.
Q31: CA. Health insurance?
The
health insurance industry gets bad press it doesn’t deserve. When
medical care fails, they say that characterizes it. But they also
prevent a lot of interventions too. But Hollywood assumes everything is
bad about health care. I don’t know what will happen. I think single
payer could happen, and might not be too far in future. In fact it
probably would happen, maybe 50% likely if Democrats win both houses.
Q32:
LA. Absurd leverage in banking system. Large mess. Only response is
that government has taken toxic portion and thrown it onto their books.
Not
at all clear what will happen. If government intelligently spent
$500bil dollars, it wouldn’t be that bad. But now they do it
unintelligently. I am not shocked that we all have to pony up $500b. We
did it in savings and loan crisis, $150bil.
Q33: CA. Hyperinflation. Real estate and gold?
I
don’t have a good opinion on that subject. We have not been good at
taking advantage of inflation. Net inflation at Costco was zero for ten
years. Even Costco is starting to feel it. Not desirable. The previous
situation was too good to continue. If it can’t go on forever, it will
eventually stop.
Q34: Germany. Many managers typically would be carried away by all the success. Is it genes or is it still to come?
Very
flattering. Success tends to make most people pretty pompous. Someone
once suggested in a public setting, ‘Don’t you think financial success
is making Munger pompous?’ An old friend of mine stood up and
responded, “No, that is unfair criticism, I knew him when he was young
and poor and he was still pompous.”
Q35: Beverly Hills.
Berkshire has history of acquiring operating companies. Wesco has been
less active. Will you get more active?
Berkshire will be better at stuff than we are. We have not bought our last operating business at Wesco, so, stay tuned.
Q36: Auz. Wells Fargo, how did you get comfortable with their derivative positions?
They will not be exempt, but we believe they will have less than their share of troubles. I think they have a better culture.
Q37: CA. Common stock returns going forward? Should we go overseas? So much less transparency… hard to satisfy conservativeness.
P&G
and Coca-Cola is in developing world. We have exposure there. For a
great many investors, the best way to do it may be to own Coca-cola.
We’ve thought about these things. We do not lack participation in the
rest of the world. And we may get more.
Q38: LA. If you were younger, what asset management type would you join?
If
doing it again, I’d find someone I really liked being associated with,
and I’d serve little time in a pompous place doing a lousy job. But
most of jobs are in lousy places. My Harvard law professor used to say
– ‘tell me what your problem is and I’ll try to make it more difficult.’
Q39:
Germany. Insurance accounting: Cost or market, or lower of cost or
market? Was this good move for accountants of insurance coompanies 30
yrs ago?
Very tough question. Generally speaking, lower of cost
or market (standard for inventories) – but various financial types
wanted to get away from this. There is a risk of self fulfilling
prophecies, like an autocatalytic reaction in chemistry. Conservative
insurance companies marking common stocks to market is not a bad thing.
If we had lower of cost or market in derivative books, they would have
worked better. All intelligent people find it so. You are to be
complimented for being bothered by it.
Q40: CA. Average investor should invest in index funds.
All
intelligent investing is value investing. Calling something a value
fund doesn’t absolve it. You can call yourself a ballet dancer if you
dance like me, but it is not a good thing. I wouldn’t recommend people
broadly invest with any value fund. I would avoid funds that have 100%
turnover per year. It is a ridiculous way for an ordinary index fund to
behave. It is imperfect, but best outcome for most know-nothings, in
order to avoid being misled by fools and liars.
Q41: USD Currency. How many months would it take for exporters benefit?
I don’t think USD weakness will fix trade deficit.
Q42:
MN. Insurance and healthcare: How can we go about having best medical
care at lowest cost? Also, could we get your book in schools?
A
lot of people think existing system is all bad. People tire of dealing
with dumb insurance companies. There may be some reality. Changes have
been hard. If you look at hospital I am Chairman, we used to knife the
kidney. Now we use lithoscripsy, with a 100% cure rate. I would argue
our specialist doctor was one of greatest doctors Los Angeles ever had.
I think there are good things in system as well as bad. It isn’t clear
how it will work out.
I do have one clear opinion. There is way
too much intervention when dying. It is a national disgrace. They are
way better at handling it in Europe than US. You can take pride in
Europe at dealing realistically. We blow more money on stupid cases
near death where no one is helped by the intensity of the interventions.
I have trouble getting my family to read my book.
Q43: US. Are we losing our competitive edge? Education failing, infrastructure falling down. Should corporations move abroad?
Some
movement offshore for tax reasons is happening, and it hasn’t ruined
the country. It is the natural response to incentives. Berkshire could
save a lot of money, but we just haven’t done it. We have some
companies in lower tax zones. But we pay enormous income taxes. There
is a huge taxation claim between you and your money. We pay taxes that
are astronomical. I hope they become more astronomical. There is some
development to shift around to save taxes.
Should be concerned if it gets big, but it isn’t really big at the moment. Pharma co’s make drugs in Puerto rico, etc etc.
Q44: CA. Insurance linked securities. Can you discuss insurance linked securities? Are they a threat to quality of underwriting?
Of course. Like slicing and dicing insurance risk – it wouldn’t improve matters.
Q45: What has changed since you first started investing?
I
owe a great deal to Mr Buffett. It took a while to convince me. Warren
and I together got very good at reinsurance transactions and portfolio
transfers. We’ve learned together at it. Berkshire would have been a
mess if it had ever stopped learning. Only reason we’ve been able to
keep a shred of decency in our record is that we have been hell bent to
keep learning.
Q46: There is no shortage of well regarded financial experts about debt – equal to great depression?
Pushing
credit hard makes me nervous. I know how countries got ahead, and it
wasn’t by pushing consumer credit to its extreme. I am not wild about
the developments. But a great system will handle a fair amount of
abuse. Some of the [credit] expansion was good. Do I like multiple
credit cards being juggled? Do I look like kind of person who thinks
that is good idea? It turns someone into a serf. You get customers just
screwed together enough to pay you but who don’t realize cost of 36%
interest... I don’t admire the guys who are good at acquiring the serfs.
Q47: Sweden. Why do you have so few followers?
From
my point of view, we have too many damn followers. I don’t think we
have shortage of followers. Of course great bulk of people do things
differently because people running the systems have incentives to do it
differently. For a security to be mispriced, someone else must be a
damn fool. It may be bad for world, but not bad for Berkshire.
Q48: Germany. What do you think of energy drink business and how to can you avoid a bad marriage?
I
abuse caffeine, and I like soft drinks. I’ve never even tried an energy
drink. There seems to be a growing market for it. Marriage: Ben
Franklin gave best advice, keep your eyes wide open before marriage and
half shut thereafter. [applause]
Q49: TX. You said at the Berkshire meeting that if there is inflation, Iscar would make a lot more money.
Iscar
is selling to very professional customers who know a lot. They can just
raise prices like some consumer goods. If I gave impression they would
make a lot of money, I didn’t make myself clear. Iscar is so good at
delivering good products, it is hard for me to imagine them not selling
more to customers who are making more money. They don’t have automatic
pricing power. But a price increase is a price increase.
Q50: In 2005 both Berkshire and Bill Gates bought NZD. What do you think now?
I
don’t have an opinion about NZ. Some things Warren does I just ignore.
[laughter, pause] If I had something intelligent to say, I would say it.
Q51: Why the reluctance to own real estate?
Total
real estate holdings are close to zero in the total enterprise. The
Chairman has quirks. Old real estate purchases, at times we did borrow
out equity in old real estate in order to reinvest it in Coca-cola and
other things. We have huge surplus of cash now. But believe me we know
all the tricks. We may behave differently in future.
Q52: Where would you sell an operating business?
We
tend not to sell operating businesses. That is a lifestyle choice. We
have bought well. We have a few which would be better if we sold them.
But net we do better if we don’t do gin rummy management, churning our
portfolio. We want reputation as not being churners and flippers.
Competitive advantage is being not a churner. Warren says, ‘you should
take high road since so much less crowded.’
Q: Amex Visa Mastercard. Can you compare these companies?
American Express has better customers, and we like that position, a lot.
Good friends – you are through another of our idiosyncratic meetings.
[standing applause]